| Author | Comment |
NebulaQueen
Six Million Dollar Herbie
Posts: 551
(2/17/03 5:04 pm)
68.155.241.102
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 | OMG AFTERLIFE? =D
So, what are your views on the afterlife? Is there one, and if so, what's it like? Just curious about everyone's views, that's all.
Me, I personally believe in reincarnation...to an extent. (note: If I sound like I'm stating something as absolute fact, don't worry, I'm not. I'm just stating my beliefs, and don't feel like typing "I believe" after every sentence) Basically, we all have a purpose, or a goal in life. I like to call this "loose fate". You know how in some RPs, the GM's like, "Okay, the goal is to get from point A to point B. Everything else in between is fair game." Well, basically, that's how fate is. The problem is....we don't know what point B is. It could be anything from saving the world from nuclear annihilation to helping someone get off of doing drugs. Your best bet is to try and be a decent person and help the people around you.
So, you live your life, and then you die. Well, one of three things then happen.
1: Ghost-Yes, I believe in ghosts. If you're a truly tortued soul who just can't let go, well, this happens to you. Sorry.
2: Hell-What happens if your life has basically been one big excuse to cause pain towards others.
3: The After-Basically, what most consider Heaven and Purgatory. Where you go if you've been a pretty decent person. May be separated between Heaven and Purgatory, depending on your life.
Basically, if you make it to the After, well, you watch over people. Sort of like a saint or gaurdian angel. You help out people from above.
So, how does reincarnation fit into this?
Well, when you die, you also regain memories of the past lives you've led. And, when you're needed again on Earth, you become reincarnated. After a while, you're allowed to rest for good and stay in the After from then on out.
And so, that's my crackpot theory. I look forward to hearing yours. But remember...
No matter what you believe happens in the next life, don't let it get in the way of living this life.
Peace out. ---
"I died as mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal.
I died as animal and I was human.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die human,
To soar with angels blessed above.
And when I sacrifice my angel soul
I shall become what no mind ever concieved."
-Rumi Jalaluddin
---
"Er, sir, please keep your daughter away from that, the Drow Hourglass of Death is not a toy..."-Elements of Self RP
---
"JESUS IS NOT A FREAKY JUNGLE TOAD!"-Ultimate KoD |
saberlock 
Posts: 22
(2/17/03 5:54 pm)
80.61.115.209
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As much as I like the idea of an afterlife or reincarnation, I do not believe it. I believe that when you die, you cease to exist and rot away, to be use as food by bacteria and all kinds of small insects. It all ends there.
I may be horribly wrong, but I am the kind of person that only believes what I see for myself. If it can be demonstrated, it exists. If it cannot be proven, it might still exist, but I do not believe it.
I do not think people who do believe in afterlife (like, my whole family) are wrong or stupid, as long as they don't try to convince me.
"Fight with a friend at your back, steel in your hands, and magic in your veins." |
Rainbow Fright 
Angsty Goth Kitty
Posts: 268
(2/17/03 6:32 pm)
152.163.201.182
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I believe in some kind of other plane, in ghosts and reincarnation, but not Heaven or Hell. As far as deities go, I beleve in the God and Goddess, and Satan simply doesn't exist. No Hell, no Satan. Karma bites you in the ass for what you did wrong, not a red guy with horns and a pitchfork.
I've basically got this weird personal belief taking from various beliefs, mainly Wicca. A little from here, a little from there, so on and so forth.
That's right. If no belief system suits me, I make up my own. ^_^ ~Ah,the reason for ugliness,
Is it the fault of this persecuted existence?
Soon I will become a monster who cannot shed tears,
Who has forgotten pain..~ |
SuperRube
Sarcastic Smartass
Posts: 2320
(2/17/03 6:32 pm)
68.65.113.92
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I belive that I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
"Just let me bitch. It's the only thing I'm good at." |
Choark 
Closet Intellectual
Posts: 1693
(2/17/03 7:05 pm)
212.50.160.23
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I believe I get terrible depressed when I think about it. I also believe much the same as Rube as its not worth thinking about as it is going to happen no matter how much I try to will it to stop. |
pd Rydia 
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
Posts: 5980
(2/17/03 7:07 pm)
216.196.169.131
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My current belief is that the "afterlife" is the social legacy your relationships with others leave behind in your wake. If you're a basically good person, you'll leave a positive legacy ("heaven"), if you're more of an ass, you'll leave a more negative legacy ("hell"). There is no pure heaven or hell because no one is purely good or bad in their interactions.
Besides that, I don't believe it is possible for hell in the traditional Christian sense to exist...there is nothing in me or anyone else that can withstand eternal torment.
Granted, I hope that when I die, I'm proved wrong. Striving to leave a positive legacy is nice and all, but I'd much rather go to some sort of nice afterlife. ={{{
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End Reshiki |
EKDS5k 
Ereal Snippelit Monped
(of doom)
Posts: 528
(2/17/03 7:19 pm)
142.59.90.222
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We're a collection of molecules and atoms, all working in conjunction to form what we call a human being. Consciousness is nothing more than a series of chemical reactions (before anyone tells me that there's electrical stuff there too, it's chemical based, so nyah) in the brain. True, they're insanely complicated and very poorly understood, but that's what they are. So when you die, you die. There's nothing else, you just....stop. No heaven, no hell, just nothing.
Sounds bleak, yes, but it gives you motivation to make the best of your time alive.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
Ganonfro
I'm a Sad sad Panda :{{{
Posts: 239
(2/17/03 7:33 pm)
24.59.66.42
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Wow... there are some people with some pretty bleak views on the subject here... Oh well, if people want to hear my thoughts on it, message me, I don't feel like typing it all out right now. |
E Mouse 
Sadistic Author
Posts: 556
(2/17/03 7:55 pm)
172.160.155.123
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I concur with the sarcastic smartass.
... Rube. -------
E'S QUOTE OF THE WHENEVER:
"I'm here to burn the lollipops." |
Crawling Reshiki 
Suupa Moogle-jin
Posts: 3981
(2/17/03 9:19 pm)
68.62.228.2
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<_< I'll worry about that when the time comes.
Like.. *ahem* Rube.
Though I wouldn't necessarily count reincarnation out..
DB(Z) Manga Shrine - Da Tower - Dave Kelly Rocks Your Anus. |
Darsis AlTanis
Posts: 28
(2/17/03 9:33 pm)
24.48.85.239
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No one likes hearing the Christian beliefs of what come after Death. Pepole seem to think that it's too unfair to them, or that I have no right to my beliefs because I'm not willing to cahnge them. But here goes, hope I don't get flamed.
When we die, our souls are immediately judged. There is no Purgatory, and no waiting. If you have sinned, you go to hell. Period. Only perfection gets into God's presence. Obviously, no one is perfect, so this seems bleak right? Wrong. God sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross, to be buried and to rise again after three days. This was done for us, so that our sins could be redeemed and we can get into God's presence in heaven. Therefore it is faith in Christ and that faith alone that can get us into heaven. No work of man or angel can intercede, only the Blood of Christ.
I'm not gonna bring this up intentionally again, or try to force it down your throats or anything. But a Christian is supposed to spread the idea of his faith, whatever the situation. All that is gold does not glitter. not all those who wander are lost. |
Wolfbelly
BANNED!!!
Posts: 59
(2/17/03 9:38 pm)
216.123.195.25
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I'll go with the assumption that there is no life after death because we have so little in the way of evidence to prove otherwise. I personally hope that there is some form of afterlife, but I honestly don't care enough to put much in the way of serious thought into what actually exists beyond this mortal coil. If it came down to placing a bet, I'd put money on there being no life after death.
Despite popular opinion, this is not a bleak view of life. If there is nothing left of us (and by us, I mean the consciousness which we understand to be ourselves) after we die, then it would be logically impossible for usto actuallly 'die'. Think about it. If you are aware of yourself and and you call this awareness living, and you agree that death is the snuffing of that awareness, then how can one experience themself as nothingness? It's impossible. In order to experience death, you would have to be alive to experience it. Logically impossible.
Thus, we never die. Others would view us and would go "Oh look, there's Lloyd dying right now. Hi Lloyd! Lloyd? Oh, he's dead." To them I am very dead. And I would be dead, there would be no more brain or heart function. No more chance of resuscitation. However, from my point of view, I'd get closer and closer to the moment of brain death, and then I would stop. My self-awareness would never move beyond the threshold of living into death, and therefore would never die. instead what would happen is my brain would begin starving from lack of oxygen and enter a euphoric state where I would be locked for all eternity. |
Archmage144 
RTS Bastard
Posts: 1958
(2/17/03 9:53 pm)
66.72.132.171
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I have a personal belief in the Christian idea of heaven as an afterlife. I don't believe, however, in the Christian idea of hell, though I think that people that are indisputably evil and malicious are probably punished after death.
However, since I really don't have any idea what things'll be like after I die, I intend to make the most of my time here--and according to my religious philosophy, that's what God wants me to do, as well. --------
The Archmage: Sadistic GM or handsome bishounen? You decide!
RPGWW! Beware of GM!
"I disapprove of what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it." ~Voltaire
"Surrender, or die in obscurity!" ~Ramza, FF Tactics
Creative dining
Chopsticks are for eating rice
Not for poking eyes
~WhiteKnight |
EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
(of doom)
Posts: 533
(2/17/03 10:01 pm)
142.59.90.222
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Lloyd's point enhances my own. Thanks Lloyd. *hits him with something*
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
Posts: 1144
(2/17/03 11:18 pm)
24.210.143.23
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I'm going with the simple-oblivion route as well. The flash-of-your-life-before-your-eyes is the credits rolling before the reel ends and the screen goes black. "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) |
White Knight Delta 
The TRUE Goddess of Chaos
Posts: 170
(2/17/03 11:39 pm)
209.172.247.131
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I personally believe in a heaven, and in a hell, although not one of fire, brimstone, and eternal physical torment. That just seems silly to me, not to mention unimaginative and decidedly spiteful. I'm a firm believer in natural consequences, so I believe those who choose to be completely seperated from God are allowed to be. I'm not entirely sure what that entails, whether simple nonexistance or something less pleasant. I also believe in purgatory, although again, I'm not entirely sure what that entails.
Regardless, it isn't central to my theology. If I should die and suddenly find that, to my surprise, that I no longer exist, I won't be disappointed with the life I've lived (even if we ignore the paradox that would involve. One of the advantages of believing in an afterlife is that I'd never have to admit I was wrong). I consider living a virtuous life to be its own reward. I honestly don't think I've missed out on much that was worth having in following my ideals.
-White Knight
Behold! Sig figs! |
Vampire Jester Jinx 
Buddhist Lawyer Mod
Posts: 980
(2/18/03 12:53 am)
205.188.209.107
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>.> Lex has decided not to comment within this thread. Because everytime I express Christian beliefs online, somewhere, I get my feelings hurt. *Fwips*
BALL BALL BALL BALL! *chase skitter attack pinball machine*
|
Crawling Reshiki
Suupa Moogle-jin
Posts: 4012
(2/18/03 12:55 am)
68.62.228.2
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<_< Well, seeing as how Tarsis did that, but didn't receive a negative lashback, how is that? In fact, other posters have expressed beliefs similar to some Christian tenets..
So.. yeah? >_>
DB(Z) Manga Shrine - Da Tower - Dave Kelly Rocks Your Anus. |
Wolfbelly
BANNED!!!
Posts: 61
(2/18/03 2:04 pm)
216.123.195.25
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*Hurts Vampire Jester Jinx's feelings*
*Skitters away to some other thread* |
Spacecadet Spiff
Posts: 23
(2/18/03 4:52 pm)
209.23.9.176
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I like White Knight's take on it. If I believe in God and it turns out there is no God then no big deal, there is no downside to the situation after my death. However, if I go around saying that God doesn't exist and it turns out that he indeed does exist...not good.
So I prefer to err on the side of caution.
Besides, the idea that we have no souls is to say that we are nothing more than sacks of meat who by blind good fortune stumbled onto sentience. I personally find it a distasteful concept, it's ugly and it lacks elegance. Can soulless creatures create art or build civilization?
The theory of evolution predisposes that all life is a happy accident. Moreover, the laws of the universe themselves happened the same way, by accident. So that the order of the universe came out from chaos by mere happenstance.
Atheism and Evolution rely on way too many "happy accidents" for the explanation of how life came to be for me to consider a viable explanation. The belief in God or some other supernatural agency by which all things were created is certainly a much more elegant solution than trying to create a scenario where life somehow spontaneously comes forth in the form of simple one celled organisms which haphazardly evolve through the eons to arrive to where we are today.
So, when I consider it I don't think the thought of souls and having existence after death to be illogical at all. Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
Posts: 6031
(2/18/03 5:13 pm)
216.196.169.131
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| Re: OMG AFTERLIFE? =D
"The theory of evolution predisposes that all life is a happy accident."
I have to disagree with this. Many evolutionists are ALSO creationists, and vice versa. Evolution simply states the process through which animals evolved...there can still be an impetus, divine or otherwise, behind the start of evolution.
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End ReshikiEdited by: pd Rydia at: 2/18/03 4:14:32 pm
|
PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
Posts: 1165
(2/18/03 5:18 pm)
24.210.143.23
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And what's wrong with happy accidents, anyway? With a million zillion stars out there, something's bound to happen near one of 'em. "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) |
Archmage144
RTS Bastard
Posts: 1970
(2/18/03 5:24 pm)
66.72.132.97
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Probability wise, nothing's wrong with it. I think it's rather viable. Doesn't stop me from thinking that there was a bit of direction to it. --------
The Archmage: Sadistic GM or handsome bishounen? You decide!
RPGWW! Beware of GM!
"I disapprove of what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it." ~Voltaire
"Surrender, or die in obscurity!" ~Ramza, FF Tactics
Creative dining
Chopsticks are for eating rice
Not for poking eyes
~WhiteKnight |
Spacecadet Spiff
Posts: 24
(2/18/03 6:19 pm)
209.23.9.176
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Point taken, Rydia. Yes, there are people who believe in both God (or Creator of the Universe if you prefer) and evolution. But that's a pretty small number of people percentage-wise. Evolution and Atheism tend to go hand in hand.
Sorry, but probablity wise it still stinks, regardless of how many stars exist out there. According your "probability theory" if I were to toss a dime on a perfectly flat surface I should be able to get that dime to land neither on heads or tails but on it's edge hundreds or even thousands of times in a lifetime of throwing said dime. After all the probablities should be there due to the sheer number of attempts.
Bad science doesn't become good science dependent on the number of stars or size of the universe.
Still I might be persuaded if you can answer these two questions.
1) How did the first single celled lifeforms come to be?
2) How did life go from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction? Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
Posts: 6037
(2/18/03 6:34 pm)
216.196.169.131
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I disagree with you, Spiffy. I've met a sum total of maybe 5 Christians who DON'T believe in evolution, and hundreds or probably thousands who do. It's not hard to reconcile evolution and creationism and from my experience, most people, exposed to both, do.
The only reason "evolution and atheism" go hand in hand is because that's about all you can believe if you're an atheist. Atheism, that is, tends to lend toward belief in evolution. However, by no means does evolution lead to atheism. It is something to keep in mind.
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End Reshiki |
EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
(of doom)
Posts: 540
(2/18/03 6:56 pm)
142.59.90.222
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Quote:
Sorry, but probablity wise it still stinks, regardless of how many stars exist out there. According your "probability theory" if I were to toss a dime on a perfectly flat surface I should be able to get that dime to land neither on heads or tails but on it's edge hundreds or even thousands of times in a lifetime of throwing said dime. After all the probablities should be there due to the sheer number of attempts.
There is the fact that most coins don't actually balance on their edge. You would have to throw it perfectly to have all the rotational forces acting on your coin to all come to equilibrium while the dime is on its edge. So yes. If you sat there for a lifetime, throwing the coin on the table then it would come up edge several times. The probability is incredibly small yes, but it's still there.
Now. If you take a look out into space, you'll note that there are millions of planets surrounding millions of stars, none of which have any life on them (that we know of). So we're one in a million million million planets that actually supports life.
If you can't tell yet, I'm going with the "probability theory" on this one.
Quote:
Besides, the idea that we have no souls is to say that we are nothing more than sacks of meat who by blind good fortune stumbled onto sentience. I personally find it a distasteful concept, it's ugly and it lacks elegance.
The concept that someone would pick up a knife and brutally murder his brother is ugly and lack elegance as well. I'm sorry but the fact that something isn't pleasant doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
And who's to say how many there are out there that didn't get sentience? Where one little thing went differently and now they're not alive?
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
Spacecadet Spiff
Posts: 26
(2/18/03 7:03 pm)
209.23.9.176
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I'll concede the point. Most of the Christians I know are rather conservative in their intrepretation of the Bible and thus tend not to believe in evolution. That being the case my experience is undoubtedly skewed.
My take on it is this: If there truly is a God who created the universe then he is without a doubt omnipotent (thus the name "God") and wouldn't need to bother with evolution to create life and specifically, human life. Since he's omnipotent he can create the universe any old way he likes. Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
Posts: 6039
(2/18/03 7:09 pm)
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Why would God bother with evolution? Well, if God is omnipotent, why does He need to make humans or anything else at all? :P For the heck of it, that's why.
And it might very well have been in His design to allow for his creatures to change with their world as time went on. For our world undoubtedly changes, for whatever reason.
Myself, the 'why' doesn't bother me. Who'm I to go around trying to understand God? I don't think all the evolutionary evidence can be discredited, so I figure there's some truth to it. And if it is so, then God had a good reason.
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End ReshikiEdited by: pd Rydia at: 2/18/03 6:12:18 pm
|
PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
Posts: 1168
(2/18/03 7:26 pm)
24.210.143.23
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Quote:
1) How did the first single celled lifeforms come to be?
2) How did life go from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction?
1) Amino acids forming from the chemical interactions between the atmosphere, the proto-oceanic liquid, and lightning, forming proteins, which develop into their own organisms when they meet. Don't ask me for more technical stuff as I can't remember, but the specific spontaneous creation of amino acids from the elements that existed in protoearth HAS been reproduced.
2) evolution!  ! Life needed a better way to do things, and life found it. "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) |
Spacecadet Spiff
Posts: 27
(2/18/03 7:31 pm)
209.23.9.176
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So you're saying that scientists were able to create single celled organisms?
Number two isn't an answer that actually answers my question. But the creation of single celled organisms was pretty much the biggest hurdle anyways. Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 Edited by: Spacecadet Spiff at: 2/18/03 6:32:28 pm
|
EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
(of doom)
Posts: 542
(2/18/03 7:34 pm)
142.59.90.222
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| Re: OMG AFTERLIFE? =D
No, he's saying scientists have observed the spontaneous formation of amino acids from baser elements. Creating life is still something that's beyond our capabilities. In all likelihood, it took hundreds or even thousands of years for those amino acids and proteins to form an actual cell.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
Posts: 6045
(2/18/03 7:40 pm)
216.196.169.131
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I would like to say that, even though this has gone off topic (of which I'm partially responsible ^_^;;), I'm pleased at how the discussion is being conducted. o_o *gives cookies to those debating and continues to watch*
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End Reshiki |
SuperRube
Sarcastic Smartass
Posts: 2344
(2/18/03 7:45 pm)
68.65.113.92
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Even to Priam?
[edit] Even to Priam.
"Just let me bitch. It's the only thing I'm good at."Edited by: pd Rydia at: 2/18/03 6:49:05 pm
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Spacecadet Spiff
Posts: 28
(2/18/03 7:46 pm)
209.23.9.176
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I'm no chemist but from what I vaguely (very vaguely) recall from my chemistry class is that chemical reactions happen rather quickly.
So why should the first formation of life be any different? Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
KingOfDoma
Ex-Zombie Extraordinaire!
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To Dia:
This topic hasn't gone off the rails at all.
I think it's only natural that a discussion of the end of life must go back to the origins of life. --------------------
"The only thing that makes the daily tedium bearable is knowing that I have power over life and death." -Chancellor Usurper, 8BT |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
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Interesting way to put it, Cha. o.o *gives cookie*
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End Reshiki |
PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
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(2/18/03 8:14 pm)
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You expect too much of the world, Spiff.
Say, if a dirt clod can go REALLY fast if you throw it, then shouldn't it be a cinch to make a mountain rise up out of the ground? It's just a really big dirt clod, after all... "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) |
EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
(of doom)
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Quote:
I'm no chemist but from what I vaguely (very vaguely) recall from my chemistry class is that chemical reactions happen rather quickly.
High school chemistry, right? One of the first things that I learned in university is that much of what they teach you in high school is a load of crap. Chemical reactions are rarely instantaneous, and less so the more complex they get. Something like the formation of a cell would take a while, I'd think, especially when you consider just how complex things like DNA and various nother proteins are. Not to mention that it's an "all or nothing" kind of deal. You either have a cell, or you don't. A half a cell just won't survive, and would quickly break back down into its component. You need the whole thing. Which may or may not take a while, I don't know.
But as one of the few people here who has actually worked in a lab with actual chemicals, I think I'm more than qualified to say that very few chemical reactions work the same way they teach you in high school.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
Spacecadet Spiff
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(2/18/03 8:46 pm)
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Single celled life was smaller than a mountain last time I checked. Either chemical reactions happen or they don't. I'm unaware of any chemical reactions that take centuries or eons to happen.
I could be wrong but I doubt it. Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
Wolfbelly
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(2/18/03 8:59 pm)
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Umm, Spiff ... your logic is flawed. I say this with utmost respect, and will try to shy away from explaining this in detail because it'd take me about a day to go through all of your points and show why it is not logical. I'll just make one point and hopefully won't have to make another while you all debate this ...Quote:
Spiff: 2) How did life go from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction?
Priam: 2) evolution! ! Life needed a better way to do things, and life found it.
Spiff: Number two isn't an answer that actually answers my question. But the creation of single celled organisms was pretty much the biggest hurdle anyways.
Using your logic, Priam's response would answer your question. Your disbelief in random chance, what you falsely called logic, was based around the fact that you disagree personally with random chance. As you, yourself stated ...Quote:
I personally find it a distasteful concept, it's ugly and it lacks elegance.
Just because it's distasteful does not necessarily mean it's not possible. Is ebola elegant? Is a river whose path was carved by the random directive forces of water currents and rain droplets not elegant? |
EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
(of doom)
Posts: 544
(2/18/03 8:59 pm)
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| Re: OMG AFTERLIFE? =D
Did you even read what I said? Chemical reactions can happen VERY slowly. The hydrolysis of sucrose into glucose and fructose takes several days.
To create an actual cell, there would have to be very specific conditions met, which obviously aren't all that common. Once the cell is created, then it can (hopefully) move out of those specific conditions, change and adapt, and what have you.
As for the comment about "chemical reactions happen or they don't," that's just not true. There are many chemicals you can mix together, heat up, and shake the hell out of, and nothing will happen. As soon as you add one drop of some kind of catalyst, though, the whole thing happens in an instant. Then again, it might not. There are tons of factors to consider.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
Spacecadet Spiff
Posts: 30
(2/18/03 9:12 pm)
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First of all, when I started my post you hadn't posted yet. I was replying to Priam's post.
Ok, I'm not a chemist so I'll have to admit that I can't argue with your expertise. Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
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(2/18/03 9:17 pm)
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| ::sighs::
::pokes people:: This is beginning to get a bit inconsiderate. Try to keep sarcasm and such out of your posts.
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End Reshiki |
Wolfbelly
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(2/18/03 9:23 pm)
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Why do theological discussions and dissertations on the nature of life always cause people to wan tto boil their opponents head in a stewing pot? Why? WHY!?! I second Rydia on this one. Make your points as politely as possible, admit your wrongs, and allow other people to be right. Don't turn this into a war.
Whatever happened to the hippie way of discussing? |
EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
(of doom)
Posts: 545
(2/18/03 9:26 pm)
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| Re: ::sighs::
My post was made with the assumption that Spiff had read my previous post and summarily ignored it. I apologize.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
Spacecadet Spiff
Posts: 31
(2/18/03 9:32 pm)
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But I did admit I was wrong. Or at least admitted to the possibility that I was wrong.
And I thought the hippie way of discussion was to get baked, get the munchies and then eventually pass out. Which really doesn't lead to much discussion Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
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(2/18/03 9:39 pm)
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| Re: ::sighs::
Spiffy: That particular statement might or might not have been directed at you. I don't think it was, as you have --as stated-- admitted flaws in your argument.
Wolfie: I'd guess it's because on topics like this people generally have very thought-out and set views on the topics. Once someone explains their point of view, chances are the person to whom they're talking will still disagree with them. That sometimes is interpretted as the other not understanding or dismissing the argument, which seems insulting.
It's easier to handle these arguments if you go into them knowing that you'll probably wind up agreeing to disagree. Then you can be more emotionally disconnected from the argument, and better appreciate learning about others' viewpoints.
At least, that's my take on these topics. ::passes out Hippie Brand(tm) munchies::
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End ReshikiEdited by: pd Rydia at: 2/18/03 8:42:30 pm
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Uncle Pervy 
Posts: 3279
(2/19/03 12:52 pm)
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Alright, I suppose I should try to delve into my views on this.
(Note: I've only read some of this. Pervy dun care for argying)
The answer is: I dunno.
I have beliefs, yes, but I do not see them as truths in any sense. More like hopes for the future. If they don't come to be, so be it.
I believe that in the end, Good is rewarded. Those who tried to do well are admitted into something like Heaven. Those who have failed are returned to this existance to try again.
Perhaps it is naive, but given the harshness of this life, I find it hard to accept any sort of Creator could be anything other than merciful afterwards. Maybe I'm too much an optimist, though.
But in the end, I'll just try to moderate my evil and hope for the best. |
Darsis AlTanis
Posts: 34
(2/19/03 3:12 pm)
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| Re: ::sighs::
Yaynesss...!!
Arguing against Evolution is one of my favorite hobbies. Hope this thread isn't considered dead.
I think, and I stress think, the following points pertain:
HOW THE THEORY TELLS IT (The beginning of life on earth)
(1) There was just the right atmosphere - and it was totally different from th one we now have.
(2) The ground, water, or ocean where life began had just the right combination of chemicals in it - which it also does no now have.
(3) Using an unknown source of exactly the right amount of energy, amino acids then formed in sufficient quantities that -
(4)they could combine into lots of proteins and nucleotides
(5) Then they reformed themselves into various organs inside a main organism.
(6) Then they did some careful thinking (as with all the other points, beyond the mental abilities of todays best scientists) and developed a genetic code to cover thousands of different factors.
(7) At this point, they were ready to start reproducing. Of course this means that the previous 6 points had to occur within the lifetime of a single bacterium. Which doesn't live very long. So it would have to think and act pretty damn fast. All that is gold does not glitter. not all those who wander are lost. |
SuperRube
Sarcastic Smartass
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Now Darsis should go back and actually read the entire thread, that way, he can find out that everyone already covered all of his points! Yay!
"Just let me bitch. It's the only thing I'm good at." |
PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
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Quote:
Single celled life was smaller than a mountain last time I checked.
Yes, but a mountain is made of similar materials, and is created through physical processes. So a mountain is very much different from a single-celled organism, yes. In metaphor, though, it works quite well--each takes a great amount of time, and some fairly conducive circumstances, to create. And really, a single-celled organism is HARDER to create than a mountain, because of all the weird components. But, if you imagine every lightning strike around proto-earth being a chance for five million amino acids to generate and form proteins and whathaveyou, AND consider that the atmosphere on protoearth was MUCH more tumultuous and conducive to lightning storms, and even then, it has a billion years to work with...well, I believe you can do the math. "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) |
Vampire Jester Jinx
Buddhist Lawyer Mod
Posts: 995
(2/20/03 12:53 am)
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>.> indeed to what dia says. the reason this can get snotty is because it is all opinion and belief. >.> belief for those who believe in higher powers, opinion to the men of science. *slinks back out of the thread after giving wolfy a bite* no hurting my feelings. 
BALL BALL BALL BALL! *chase skitter attack pinball machine*
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Wolfbelly
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But I skittered!!! I SKITTERED
Oh well, since I'm kind of against spam (... in non-spam forums ... featuring threads which I've already spammed), I'll give one of my many theories on God and how we fit into the whole mix of things.
If a God does exist, then he is by no means perfect. Omnipotence is a contradiction, because if a being was truly omnipotent then he would be able to create limitations for himself ... this limiting him. If he could not create these limitations, then he is not omnipotent. A prime example of this is the common Christian belief that God gave us all free will. If God gave us free will, then he cannot foresee what we will decide. If he cannot foresee, then he is not omnipotent. If God did not give us free will, then he is by definition not omnipotent.
Now, according to us, or anything else within his creation (the universe) God is perfect. The reason for this perfection is the simple fact that God cannot create anything better than himself, and therefore he is limited to creating equal or lesser things when compared to his current level of skill. For example, if God were to be capable of bench pressing 80 kilograms, there would be no creature in all of creation which could bench press more than 80 kilograms because they could not have that ability designed into them. Plain and simple, if God does not understand it, or if God does not know of it, then it does not exist.
So, taking what appears to be a digression, but will actually make sense later on, "Can God create a stone so large that he cannot lift it?" The answer to this would be "Well ... yeah", because we see stones in abundance throughout the world, so God obviously understands the concept of a stone. But taking the question itself in a less literal format, God must be capable of creating beings which he cannot figure out. Think about it, if God were to create a being with the exact same abilities to reason, then he would have created a sentient being whose actions he could not predict ... or, in Christian terms, God would have given man free will.
So, the question itself should not be "Can God create a stone which he cannot lift", but should rather be "Why wouldn't God create a stone that he could not lift". Again, think about it. If you were a supreme ultimate being, would you create a bunch of stuff which is easily within your power, or would you create things which puzzle you, which challenge you? To create stuff which God already understands is the divine equivalent of masturbation. Sure, it may be fun but it gets you no where and really, what's the point? By creating something which God himself cannot predict, he challenges himself and creates the potential for growth.
So, if the above statements are true, then we are the intellectual, rational equivalents of God. We don't possess nearly as much knowledge, nor nearly as much wisdom, but when it comes to reasoning we are on par with divinity. That's kind of a boost to your self confidence, isn't it? Edited by: Wolfbelly at: 2/20/03 4:19:07 am
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PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
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Actually, the question "Can god create a stone so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" is similar to the question "Can you draw a circle that is a triangle?" By definition, the output would be impossible, and thus the question is invalid. Christians rejoice! "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) |
Wolfbelly
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I fail to see how the two sentences co-relate. One subject is 'God', the other is 'You'. Big difference. One predicate involves the creation of an unliftable rock, the other the drawing of an impossibility. |
PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
Posts: 1195
(2/20/03 6:05 am)
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Incorrect. If, by definition, God is omnipotent, and, if, by definition, a certain item is immobile, then there is a contradiction.
Much as if, by definition, a circle was not, by definition, a triangle.
A rock that God himself cannot move IS an impossibility.
I can cite a drier, wordier, but more thorough philosophical discussion on it, if you wish. "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) Edited by: PriamNevhausten at: 2/20/03 5:06:59 am
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pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
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(2/20/03 8:59 am)
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An interesting argument, Wolfie. However, I must note that many hold that God is supposed to be beyond human comprehension. If one adheres to this belief, part of your argument is null.
(This is, incidentally, the reason why I feel all belief systems about God are inherently wrong. By extension, it's also why it doesn't bother me too much when people differ from my beliefs or damn me to hell [well, this belief and chick tracts...]).
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End ReshikiEdited by: pd Rydia at: 2/20/03 8:07:51 am
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Spacecadet Spiff
Posts: 48
(2/20/03 10:46 am)
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Er, what is a chick tract? Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
Posts: 6128
(2/20/03 11:44 am)
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Ultra-conservative "Christian" comics, with many underlying themes of racism, sexism, and other fun stuff. They detail how I'm going to hell, and I find them quite funny. o_o If you really want to see them, do a search on google.
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End Reshiki |
Banjooie 
Will Save World for Pie
Posts: 1072
(2/20/03 11:54 am)
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See, it wasn't careful thinking
It was trial and error.
LOTS of trial and error.
For the best book on evolution ever, get "The Science of Discworld", by Terry Pratchett/Ian Stewart/Jack Cohen.
It's half science textbook, half fantasy book <Chat> <Matto says, "What's up?"
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Angst."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Drama."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Betrayal."
<Chat> <Prince_Herb says, "Plushies." |
Wolfbelly
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(2/20/03 2:04 pm)
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Quote:
A rock that God himself cannot move IS an impossibility.
Exactly my point. I wasn't aware that you were agreeing with me ... my bad. The question itself is designed to prove the paradox of omnipotence.Quote:
However, I must note that many hold that God is supposed to be beyond human comprehension. If one adheres to this belief, part of your argument is null.
This is true, God is most likely beyond human comprehension. Now, would this be the case or is it just the easy man's way out? I'd say it's the easy man's way out because God's thought processes would probably, by definition, make complete and total sense within the universe. What makes complete sense? Well, rationality does. Some people might be able to say that God is beyond rationality as he is an ultimate being, but then would that make God irrational? In which case, why would rationality, when understood, make so much damn sense?
Hmm ... I'm not disagreeing with you Rydia, just providing an alternate viewpoint. "Does God love the good because it is good, or is it good because God loves it?" |
 FlamingDeth 
*steals a Russian submarine*
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ezSupporter
 | Re: OMG AFTERLIFE? =D
Incidentally, the image in my sig comes straight from a Chick Tract!  |
I am an arrogant bastard.
And now, since I want to be unique like everybody else, quotes:
"People don't seem to realize, it wasn't a powerful ass poke. It was a powerful poke, to the ass!" ~ Lord McBastard
"So what you're saying is that Nintendo and Sony are in league with each other, and possibly the Red Skull?" ~ EKDS5K
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Darsis AlTanis
Posts: 37
(2/20/03 3:10 pm)
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The problem I have with Wolf's argument is that you are applying human logic to a persona who is far above and beyond that logic. Logic doesn't necessarily apply to God, therefore you cannot analyze it in this context. This does not mean that god is illogical, or irrational. He is beyond ration and logic. The rock question: God can create a rock that he can't lift, but he can also lift it.
A good example is Jesus Christ himself. By Christian beliefs, our redemption could not occur unless Christ was 100 percent God, and 100 percent man. Now you can say this is a paradox, but it is not, because this is God that we are referring to. All that is gold does not glitter. not all those who wander are lost. Edited by: Darsis AlTanis at: 2/20/03 2:15:24 pm
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Wolfbelly
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(2/20/03 4:56 pm)
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Quote:
The problem I have with Wolf's argument is that you are applying human logic to a persona who is far above and beyond that logic. Logic doesn't necessarily apply to God, therefore you cannot analyze it in this context. This does not mean that god is illogical, or irrational. He is beyond ration and logic.
Hmmm ... something with your rebuttal just ... doesn't ... seem ... right ...
Assuming that human logic is below the rationale of God, and that human logic can, thus far with what we've experienced of the universe, predict natural events, then you're saying that God created something far beneath him when he created humans and the universe. If God created something far beneath him, then wouldn't he kind of know what we were going to do when he made us? Thus eliminating the whole free will theory? And if God then created us without free will, why then would he force us to theorize about him, and also give us trials which he knows that some of us will pass and others will fail. Why would God create people specifically to go to Hell?
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your statement ... but I don't think that God is above logic. Rather, I'd say that Logic is logical because that's the way God thinks.Quote:
The rock question: God can create a rock that he can't lift, but he can also lift it.
Ah, but then God was not capable of creating a rock which he could not lift. Thus showing his impotence, rather than omnipotence.Quote:
A good example is Jesus Christ himself. By Christian beliefs, our redemption could not occur unless Christ was 100 percent God, and 100 percent man. Now you can say this is a paradox, but it is not, because this is God that we are referring to.
Hmmm ... no. There are still logical impossibilities which I would have to say that not even God could change. A circular triangle for example (as stated earlier by Priam). What is a circle? A circle is, that which is not a triangle. A triangle is that which is not a circle (I know that these are bad definitions, I've lowered their scope due to the fact that we're not dealing with any other geometric shapes at the moment. I could have broadened the definitions, but I don't need to in this case). So, the only way that God would be able to unmake the circle-triangle paradox would be for him to alter what the definition of a circle or a triangle was. if he did that, then we wouldn't see it as a paradox anymore, because our ideas of what a circle and a triangle are would alter to allow that option. So, as long as we see something as a logical paradox, it is a paradox decided by God.
And no, I don't see Jesus Christ as being 100% God and 100% man as a paradox. Another of my theories involves us being individual aspects of God experiencing ourselves subjectively and objectively so that God can advance as an entity. Thus, I can say that I am 100% man, and 100% God ... but that's something for a later date. |
Spacecadet Spiff
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(2/20/03 5:05 pm)
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Wolfbelly, if I'm reading your arguement right then one of the reasons that there can't be a God is that he doesn't fit into human logic.
Let's just say for the sake arguement that you're right and God does not exist. Even so there is plenty of potential for the universe to be full of things that are beyond the human comprehension.
Imagine that I had a time machine and I went back in time and killed my father before he had met my mother. According to logic such a thing is impossible. I would never have been born and so I could never go back to kill my father. Yet, if my father were to live because I didn't come into existence then he would survive to meet my mother and get her pregnant with me. In which case I would be able to use my time machine to go back and kill him. And so on.
I know you're probably going to say that such an example is invalid because no such thing could ever happen. That's true according to our understanding of the universe. Yet that doesn't mean that somewhere somehow it hasn't happened. It's a big universe out there and as someone already pointed out the possibilities are endless.
The problem is that our minds are finite. Logically then we can never truly grasp the infinite. Just because God doesn't fit into a framework that we understand doesn't mean his existence is impossible.
Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
Wolfbelly
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Quote:
Wolfbelly, if I'm reading your arguement right then one of the reasons that there can't be a God is that he doesn't fit into human logic.
What? For the purposes of this argument, I'm saying that God does exist. And, I'm saying that God is not above human logic.
Granted, there are some things which we cannot understand now ... but then the human mind has the ability to show vast improvements. We've gone from believing that the sun revolves around the earth to working hardcore to determine a Grand Universal Theory. I'd say that our room for advancement is near infinite. I do agree however that our minds are finite, and trying to understand the infinite is an impossibility. But then, everybody has thought about the nature of God, and since everybody has at one time thought about the nature of God, it seems to be human nature that we try to understand infinity.
Hmm, I agree with everything else you said. The grandfather paradox is ... well, a paradox. Have you heard Niven's explanation was to why there could never be a time machine? |
Spacecadet Spiff
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(2/20/03 5:39 pm)
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I've read tons of Niven so I probably did read it. However, I must have forgotten, it's been a rather long time. Er, you did mean Larry Niven right?
"... but then the human mind has the ability to show vast improvements. We've gone from believing that the sun revolves around the earth to working hardcore to determine a Grand Universal Theory. I'd say that our room for advancement is near infinite. "
The fact that we have better understanding of the universe does not prove that we have a greater capacity for intelligence than our ancestors. Had any one of us been living in those times we would have had the same worldview that they did. The fact that we have access to greater knowledge means little in regards to our intelligence or wisdom in comparision to the people who thought the sun revolved around the Earth. Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 Edited by: Spacecadet Spiff at: 2/20/03 4:44:36 pm
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EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
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Just a quick interjection here. The power of omnipotence would, by definition, include the power to end that omnipotence. Thus God could create a rock even he couldn't lift. Your argument that "then he wouldn't be omnipotent" defeats itself, because yes, he's just ended that omnipotence by creating said rock.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
White Knight Delta
The TRUE Goddess of Chaos
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(2/20/03 6:41 pm)
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Option number 2:
God's omnipotence extends to being able to do things that are logically impossible.
[edit] On second reading, that idea has been kinda addressed already.
-White Knight
Behold! Sig figs!Edited by: White Knight Delta at: 2/20/03 5:46:31 pm
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PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
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(2/20/03 10:55 pm)
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If god is beyond rationality, and it's off limits to even discuss him with rational discourse, then why the FUCK are you even TALKING? "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
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(2/20/03 11:05 pm)
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Dude, Priam. Chill out. You need to stop doing this in serious threads, honestly.
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End ReshikiEdited by: pd Rydia at: 2/20/03 10:06:10 pm
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White Knight Delta
The TRUE Goddess of Chaos
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Well, one could argue that while words and reason can never contain the reality of God, they could nonetheless serve as guides to UNDERSTANDING the reality of God.
That's what I believe, anyway. It shares similarities with Zen, I suppose.
-White Knight
Behold! Sig figs! |
PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
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(2/20/03 11:13 pm)
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Grah. I have little patience with such absurdities in a serious discussion. I apologize for uncalledfor loudnesses in present and future, as I'm sure it'll happen again sometime.
Grah, I say. "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) |
Wolfbelly
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(2/20/03 11:17 pm)
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*Resets the clock which says "It has been ____ minutes since Priam lost his cool" and waits* |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
Picked that Lock'' Award
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(2/20/03 11:20 pm)
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Please do try to keep your cool in serious discussions. o__o To be quite honest your spazzing has made me much more reluctant to post my opinions here (on this forum) in general, and I suspect it's done the same to others who won't speak up.
You either find a lot of absurdities, or you have difficulties remaining respectful of differing opinions. Or both. >_> What may be absurd to you makes sense to another, try to keep that in mind.
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End Reshiki |
PriamNevhausten
Dances With Arrows
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(2/20/03 11:21 pm)
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*needs to drink more ritalin, apparently* "Some say there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're DEAD."
--Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
"Dear Lord God Jesus Motherfucking Christ, help me get through the day without shoving things up my anus and posting them on the internet." --Goatse 1:11
MEGAMOG911 (2:18:41 AM): OMG HWANG WINS (2/07/2003) |
pd Rydia
Winner of The ''Holy Crap you
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(2/20/03 11:46 pm)
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I hear cookies are a good substitute. ::gives cookies::
::stops dragging the topic off the topic that was kinda off topic::
-=- "Why must my flaming debris be so delicious and edible? ;_;" -- FlamingDeth
-=- "oye KoD! tu griego me rockearia, si fuera griego de verdad..." -- ikozaedro
-=- "Seriously. The undead just don't stop. Great, aren't they?" -- Dirk (Skull Dragon)
-=- "Kelne's a natural magnet for everything, from lovers to planetary destroyers to carrots." -- End Reshiki |
Wolfbelly
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(2/21/03 1:45 pm)
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*Returns after a couple days of careful thought and meditation*Quote:
I've read tons of Niven so I probably did read it. However, I must have forgotten, it's been a rather long time. Er, you did mean Larry Niven right?
Yes, Larry niven, that hack ... *grumble grumble* Anyway, he wrote an essay on how Time Travel is an impossibilitiy. If someone were to go back in time and alter the past (and, by Chaos Theory, merely appearing in the past would alter the future), they would alter the future. So long as time machines exist, this alteration would always take place until ... a time machine never existed. Thus eliminating Time Travel.Quote:
The fact that we have better understanding of the universe does not prove that we have a greater capacity for intelligence than our ancestors. Had any one of us been living in those times we would have had the same worldview that they did. The fact that we have access to greater knowledge means little in regards to our intelligence or wisdom in comparision to the people who thought the sun revolved around the Earth.
universe = God. Assuming we can gain a better understanding of our universe, then we become closer to understanding the nature of God. However, the universe is infinite, thus displaying the difficulty with this proposition.
Granted, if I were born back in the day of rocks and sticks, I wouldn't have been able to figure out all that crazy shiznit about ... I dunno ... Chemistry. But the simple fact of the matter is that the boundaries of human knowledge have expanded steadily. These boundaries could shrink again (think apocalyptic holocaust followed by three or four generations which are primarily focused on just surviving. See how much old world knowledge survives then), but they do grow as we learn more about the universe. And I'm not saying that we need a greater capacity for intelligence, rather I'm saying that we just need a greater understanding of our surroundings.
Edit: My point exactly, Doc. Edited by: Wolfbelly at: 2/21/03 12:47:47 pm
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Darsis AlTanis
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(2/21/03 4:24 pm)
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Ai. Back to the point I made Wolf. I said that God could create a rock that he could not lift, but could also lift it. You're response was that then he could not create a rock that he can't lift. But notice I said that he can't lift it.
He can't lift it, but he can. It's not something that humans can really understand. He is both simultaneously incapable and capable of lifting said rock. Hence my insistence that God is above human logic.
And only Jesus was both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
All that is gold does not glitter. not all those who wander are lost. |
Wolfbelly
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(2/21/03 4:41 pm)
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Hmmm ... changing the sentence a tad ... relating more to what Doc mentioned ... "Can an omnipotent being make things which he cannot subsequently control?" But I think the point you are getting at is something more along the lines of "God can limit himself as long as he wills it", which makes perfect sense really. God could create an unliftable rock, which even he couldn't lift. But, when he wanted to lift it ... well, he's God ... so he lifts it.
Hmmm ... I think you just blew J. L. Mackie out of the water.
And editing your Jesus comment slightly ... "And only Jesus was ALLEGEDLYboth 100 percent God and 100 percent man."
Edited by: Wolfbelly at: 2/21/03 3:56:33 pm
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EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
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(2/21/03 4:47 pm)
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That's not quite what I said, though I suppose it works. What I meant was that he could end his omnipotence, by creating such a rock. Thus the rock is in place, and nobody, not even himself, can move it. Since he's ended his omnipotence, he'd never be able to move it.
It's like the difference between me simply not kicking you in the shin, and me cutting off my own foot.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
Wolfbelly
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But ...
Guy: "Hey, God! Create a rock you cannot lift!"
GOD: "Okay." *creates the unliftable rock*
Guy: "Wow! Cool! Now lift it!"
GOD: "Okay." *makes himself capable of lifting the unliftable, and goes and lifts the rock*
Guy: "Impressive! Now create a rock which is permanently unliftable!"
GOD: "Sure, buddy." *Creates a permanently unliftable rock*
Guy: "Wow! Now lift it!"
GOD: "No."
In the above dialogue, God can limit himself by creating something which is unliftable. However, this creation only lasts for as long as God wants it to last. Now, when creating a permanent limitation to his power, it would only be permanent if God had no desire to make it not permanent. Thus, the rock is unliftable only so long as God does not want to lift it.
Now here's a question for the sages ... could God limit his omnipotence to the point where he could not regain his omnipotence? |
EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
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(2/21/03 5:07 pm)
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That's what I just said he could do. If you answer no to that question, then you're saying God isn't omnipotent, which invalidates....pretty much everything said up to this point.
Saying yes isn't a problem, because once he does that, then he's changed the definition of "God," and he is no longer omnipotent.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
Wolfbelly
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(2/21/03 5:14 pm)
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*So totally cannot listen to other people it seems*
I think the whole omnipotence thing can be answered by discussing free will. Is an ant free? It does what it wants, when it wants. It just so happens that it wants to serve the hive until its untimely demise. Now, thinking of God. If he limits his omnipotence, does that just mean he chooses not to do that action? Thus, his free will is the limiting factor, not necessarily his Godly might.
But anyway, I've gotta go off and eat something. |
EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
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(2/21/03 5:17 pm)
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But it's a question of "can he do it," not "does he want to do it."
He could create the rock, and choose not to make himself strong enough to lift it. Or, he could create the rock, and make himself unable to lift it, permanently.
It's like the difference between saying I choose not to get up and hurl my computer to the floor, and cutting my hands off so I am physically unable to.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
Wolfbelly
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(2/21/03 5:22 pm)
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*Is now back to square one* |
EKDS5k
Ereal Snippelit Monped
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(2/21/03 5:24 pm)
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That happens a lot with these types of discussions.
QUOTES!
shermbob700036: kazzaa is stupid and the reason there doing it is becouse all the death <--referring to the supposed "shutting down" of kazaa
"Yay! Happy greek sex time!" ~LDC |
Spacecadet Spiff
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(2/21/03 5:52 pm)
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Getting a tad off topic (ok a lot off topic) why do you have a problem with Larry Niven? Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
Wolfbelly
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(2/22/03 12:16 am)
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I find Niven to be an incredibly boring storyteller. When dealing with short stories, the action seems paced and there's very little that he can do to make them go wrong. However, reading stories like Ringworld, Integral Trees, or ... hell, I dunno, gave me the feeling that the man does NOT know how to write. Sure, he has spectacularly cool ideas (Integral trees? Frickin' cool, man!), but his character development seemed contrived, plot twists were predictable or just plain retarded, and the stories generally plodding and lifeless. The settings were poorly described (especially in integral trees), events seemed more thrown at you than built around your senses. His writing style just ... pisses me off.
However, combine him with some other writers and he's not half bad. they manage to compensate for his hack writing skillz, like Legacy of Heurot. Not too shabby. |
Spacecadet Spiff
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(2/22/03 12:41 am)
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Yeah, he was better at short stories. Although I didn't loath his novels. And I believe it was Niven who wrote an amusing treatise on why Superman could never have children. It was called "Man of Steel, Woman of Tissue" if I remember correctly. Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
FlamingDeth
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ezSupporter
| Re: OMG AFTERLIFE? =D
Hey I liked Ringworld and The Integrel Trees. However, his best work that I've seen was when he worked with Arthur C. Clark... |
I am an arrogant bastard.
And now, since I want to be unique like everybody else, quotes:
"People don't seem to realize, it wasn't a powerful ass poke. It was a powerful poke, to the ass!" ~ Lord McBastard
"So what you're saying is that Nintendo and Sony are in league with each other, and possibly the Red Skull?" ~ EKDS5K
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Spacecadet Spiff
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(2/22/03 1:09 am)
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Arthur C. Clark, now that guy was boring. Or at least Rendezvous With Rama sure was. Put me right to sleep it did. Spacecadet- Flagrantly flouting the Laws of Grammar since 1967 |
FlamingDeth
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(2/22/03 1:19 am)
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ezSupporter
| Re: OMG AFTERLIFE? =D
Try reading Rama II, and those that follow. Clark + Niven = RAWK. |
I am an arrogant bastard.
And now, since I want to be unique like everybody else, quotes:
"People don't seem to realize, it wasn't a powerful ass poke. It was a powerful poke, to the ass!" ~ Lord McBastard
"So what you're saying is that Nintendo and Sony are in league with each other, and possibly the Red Skull?" ~ EKDS5K
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